{"type":"doc","content":[{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"text":"Bonjour stefan and thanks","type":"text"},{"type":"hardBreak"},{"text":"1 i am doing a relation between the CLP and Combined Clinical Finding for the reason that in the presentation done by Bruce Goldberg he addressed the 2 issues succesfully and i interpret that as stating that in the EHR what is entered is a statement on a CLP AND NOT on Combined Conditions.","type":"text"},{"type":"hardBreak"},{"text":"If i overinterpreted my question is off","type":"text"},{"type":"hardBreak"},{"text":"2 If i am right in 1 what i mean principally is that if we considered that the FSN described a CLP we shall not go to a due to/caused by discussion for at that time we cannot know the strength of the relation between the 2 conditions:what can be stated is either co occurent or after except when there is a certainty as meningitis caused by meningococcus ","type":"text"},{"type":"hardBreak"},{"text":"3 i can participate to the ECE monthly meeting if Bruce wishes","type":"text"},{"type":"hardBreak"},{"type":"hardBreak"},{"text":"hope to have clarified","type":"text"}]},{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"text":"PR JEAN MARIE RODRIGUES\nUNIVERSITE JEAN MONNET SAINT ETIENNE/LYON\nINSERM U 1142 LIMICS UPMC UP 13 PARIS\nWHO CC for International Classifications en Langue Française\nPRESIDENT AIM :www.france-aim.org/contact","type":"text","marks":[{"type":"code"}]}]},{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"text":"Le 25/02/2016 17:32, Stefan Schulz a écrit :","type":"text"}]},{"type":"blockquote","content":[{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"text":"Dear Jean-Marie,","type":"text"}]},{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"text":"now I am a bit confused,","type":"text"}]},{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"text":" ","type":"text"}]},{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"text":"What you wrote seems to be a comment about the clinical life phase approach, as underlying the combined disorders, as elaborated by the IHTSDO ECE paper","type":"text"}]},{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"text":"http://icbo2015.fc.ul.pt/regular6.pdf","type":"text","marks":[{"type":"link","attrs":{"href":"http://icbo2015.fc.ul.pt/regular6.pdf"}}]},{"text":" ","type":"text"}]},{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"text":"am I right? ","type":"text"}]},{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"text":"The ECE group plans to expand this paper to a journal publication, therefore your input is highly welcome.","type":"text"}]},{"type":"extension","attrs":{"extensionType":"com.atlassian.confluence.migration","extensionKey":"legacy-content","text":"","parameters":{"adf":"{\"type\":\"doc\",\"content\":[{\"type\":\"blockquote\",\"content\":[{\"type\":\"blockquote\",\"content\":[{\"type\":\"blockquote\",\"content\":[{\"type\":\"paragraph\",\"content\":[{\"text\":\"1 I find a contradiction between the first part on the Condition/CLP\",\"type\":\"text\"},{\"type\":\"hardBreak\"},{\"text\":\"issue and the second part trying to clarify combined clinical finding\",\"type\":\"text\"}]}]}]}]}],\"version\":1}","cxhtml":"

1 I find a contradiction between the first part on the Condition/CLP
issue and the second part trying to clarify combined clinical finding

","nestedContent":{"type":"doc","content":[{"type":"blockquote","content":[{"type":"blockquote","content":[{"type":"blockquote","content":[{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"text":"1 I find a contradiction between the first part on the Condition/CLP","type":"text"},{"type":"hardBreak"},{"text":"issue and the second part trying to clarify combined clinical finding","type":"text"}]}]}]}]}],"version":1}}}},{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"text":"which contradiction exactly?","type":"text"}]},{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"text":" ","type":"text"}]},{"type":"extension","attrs":{"extensionType":"com.atlassian.confluence.migration","extensionKey":"legacy-content","text":"","parameters":{"adf":"{\"type\":\"doc\",\"content\":[{\"type\":\"blockquote\",\"content\":[{\"type\":\"blockquote\",\"content\":[{\"type\":\"blockquote\",\"content\":[{\"type\":\"paragraph\",\"content\":[{\"text\":\"2 I fully agree and co authored that what can be shared between ICD and\",\"type\":\"text\"},{\"type\":\"hardBreak\"},{\"text\":\"SCT is the representation of CLP for what is written in the medical\",\"type\":\"text\"},{\"type\":\"hardBreak\"},{\"text\":\"record is a statement on the status of a person during an episode or a\",\"type\":\"text\"},{\"type\":\"hardBreak\"},{\"text\":\"life phase and not a condition per se with a fully explicit definition.\",\"type\":\"text\"}]}]}]}]}],\"version\":1}","cxhtml":"

2 I fully agree and co authored that what can be shared between ICD and
SCT is the representation of CLP for what is written in the medical
record is a statement on the status of a person during an episode or a
life phase and not a condition per se with a fully explicit definition.

","nestedContent":{"type":"doc","content":[{"type":"blockquote","content":[{"type":"blockquote","content":[{"type":"blockquote","content":[{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"text":"2 I fully agree and co authored that what can be shared between ICD and","type":"text"},{"type":"hardBreak"},{"text":"SCT is the representation of CLP for what is written in the medical","type":"text"},{"type":"hardBreak"},{"text":"record is a statement on the status of a person during an episode or a","type":"text"},{"type":"hardBreak"},{"text":"life phase and not a condition per se with a fully explicit definition.","type":"text"}]}]}]}]}],"version":1}}}},{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"text":"Otherwise numerous is-a relations would have to be questioned.","type":"text"}]},{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"text":" ","type":"text"}]},{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"text":"3 i understand that it is very difficult to separate co-occurent, due to","type":"text"}]},{"type":"extension","attrs":{"extensionType":"com.atlassian.confluence.migration","extensionKey":"legacy-content","text":"","parameters":{"adf":"{\"type\":\"doc\",\"content\":[{\"type\":\"blockquote\",\"content\":[{\"type\":\"blockquote\",\"content\":[{\"type\":\"blockquote\",\"content\":[{\"type\":\"paragraph\",\"content\":[{\"text\":\"associated to and before after: I would add ontologically not possible\",\"type\":\"text\"},{\"type\":\"hardBreak\"},{\"text\":\"for the causality link is in most of the cases fuzzy in medicine.\",\"type\":\"text\"}]}]}]}]}],\"version\":1}","cxhtml":"

associated to and before after: I would add ontologically not possible
for the causality link is in most of the cases fuzzy in medicine.

","nestedContent":{"type":"doc","content":[{"type":"blockquote","content":[{"type":"blockquote","content":[{"type":"blockquote","content":[{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"text":"associated to and before after: I would add ontologically not possible","type":"text"},{"type":"hardBreak"},{"text":"for the causality link is in most of the cases fuzzy in medicine.","type":"text"}]}]}]}]}],"version":1}}}},{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"text":"Especially if the only thing that guides us is a fully specified name. Often, whether something is also co-occurrent apart from being caused by (or not), this implies knowledge of the domain; it cannot be drived from the wording.","type":"text"}]},{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"text":" ","type":"text"}]},{"type":"extension","attrs":{"extensionType":"com.atlassian.confluence.migration","extensionKey":"legacy-content","text":"","parameters":{"adf":"{\"type\":\"doc\",\"content\":[{\"type\":\"blockquote\",\"content\":[{\"type\":\"blockquote\",\"content\":[{\"type\":\"blockquote\",\"content\":[{\"type\":\"paragraph\",\"content\":[{\"text\":\"4 My interpretation of the distinction Condition/CLP is that CLP must\",\"type\":\"text\"},{\"type\":\"hardBreak\"},{\"text\":\"be defined by has_condition 1,has_condition_2, has-condition_n without\",\"type\":\"text\"},{\"type\":\"hardBreak\"},{\"text\":\"assuming anything on the causality but describing what are the\",\"type\":\"text\"},{\"type\":\"hardBreak\"},{\"text\":\"conditions assessed during this life phase and when a retrieval is done\",\"type\":\"text\"},{\"type\":\"hardBreak\"},{\"text\":\"to know that during this patient CLP several conditions were present and\",\"type\":\"text\"},{\"type\":\"hardBreak\"},{\"text\":\"if the combination is frequent it can be in favor of a kind of causality\",\"type\":\"text\"}]}]}]}]}],\"version\":1}","cxhtml":"

4 My interpretation of the distinction Condition/CLP is that CLP must
be defined by has_condition 1,has_condition_2, has-condition_n without
assuming anything on the causality but describing what are the
conditions assessed during this life phase and when a retrieval is done
to know that during this patient CLP several conditions were present and
if the combination is frequent it can be in favor of a kind of causality

","nestedContent":{"type":"doc","content":[{"type":"blockquote","content":[{"type":"blockquote","content":[{"type":"blockquote","content":[{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"text":"4 My interpretation of the distinction Condition/CLP is that CLP must","type":"text"},{"type":"hardBreak"},{"text":"be defined by has_condition 1,has_condition_2, has-condition_n without","type":"text"},{"type":"hardBreak"},{"text":"assuming anything on the causality but describing what are the","type":"text"},{"type":"hardBreak"},{"text":"conditions assessed during this life phase and when a retrieval is done","type":"text"},{"type":"hardBreak"},{"text":"to know that during this patient CLP several conditions were present and","type":"text"},{"type":"hardBreak"},{"text":"if the combination is frequent it can be in favor of a kind of causality","type":"text"}]}]}]}]}],"version":1}}}},{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"text":"my interpretation is that whoever uses a concept of the type \"A due to B\" is sure about causality. Otherwise he would use the two codes for A and B separately, or possibly A and history of B","type":"text"}]},{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"text":"What about participating in the monthly ECE calls? I think you input would be very welcome.","type":"text"}]},{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"text":"Cheers","type":"text"}]},{"type":"paragraph","content":[{"text":"Stefan","type":"text"}]}]}],"version":1}

Causality and possible causality